rosenstrasse





my wikipedia motto :


if you have anything of quality

some mongrel will come along

and piss all over it




what upsets them on wikipedia


sons of the moms, ignorant stupid


spent an hour or so in a editing fight


the line  objected to 



“ the springwater center is a place of great beauty with sparkling streams
and green leafy trees that just blow through the soul........... ”



they just cannot stand the notion they have an infantile reading age and anything poetic just buzzes their tiny brains out


i should call it quits, it's not worth the effort, if not this moron then another,
what does it matter to me if she is misrepresented


wikipedia is very dynamic and you can't beat a crowd. especially a crowd of mental retardee's



update july 2010:


i have come to a different view of wikipedia, all the anguish comes if you view the entries as persistent, but in fact they are  non - persistent


there


are


various issues of


the


crowd


dragging


the


standard


down


and


patrols


by


various


thought


police




entries are a communal property and you don't want to end up making an article too much of your own. this also ties in with the notion that the articles and their content are intrinsically mutative !




this


can


extend


to


the


entry itself


  disappearing !




you are basically making agreements with other contributors as to what of your input is left and what is challenged, since they won't come to your talk page you have to go to theirs to make contact and establish a rapport if possible


however there is a persistent moron who continually defaces the toni packer entry calling himself  mindmeal


he is well on autistic spectrum and has the overboundarized mindset that goes with drug use, and shows the great weakness of wikipedia with this sort of contentious entry in that such persistence controls the entry, which actually in the end i figured was to my benefit as i have this page up on the web, it's very good and why should it be up twice?



_______________________




it only takes one unreasonable persistent person to destroy an entry and that unfortunately is what has happened with this wikipedia page


you can't do anything short of getting him banned and whats the point?


too much effort and the desired outcome is unlikely


there used to be more spoilers, but they have gone and he is young and will be around for quite a while


he's not unintelligent which is the most dangerous type of spoiler, suicidal, murderous and naturally sacrificial, though not deliberately of himself tho it happens



_______________________




stupidity is quite an active process and requires some degree of intelligence it is so thorough about removing what would defeat it


the tyranny of the talentless



________________________




mindmeal replied to the above paragraph saying:



Hi again Osip, glad to see you're still at it. If you think my decision to revert to the earlier version was incorrect, I welcome an independent review again by an administrator. This gets pretty old really



i  am in a happier space over the whole business and my reply was



lol, mindmeal re your edit comment, you win, what i have learnt is that being thwarted is usually in my longer term favour, i have my own resources, what am i doing promoting toni packer?


i have seen it so many times, people pilfer one or two ideas of mine then totally distort what is said but use it to garner the attention of others, others just want to shoot me


as i say you are doing me a favour, like one of the demon dogs in ghostbusters that guard the entrance to the spiritual world you are keeping me safe


it's odd, visiting springwater all those years ago and what i really took that was useful was that it's not safe to tell people what they don't want to hear, there really was an attempt on her life which you removed from the entry


and recently a much better understanding and sympathy of the problems of disjunction she faced at rochester and still faces at the springwater center, just head and shoulders intellectually above those around her and really she is cognitively dissonant in her way of thinking compared to theirs


she took the road of survival and made necessary compromises and i do that too now


interestingly i am more sympathetic to your obsession with jazz now having come across some very good clips of nat king cole and eartha kitt (who is really autistic btw)


nat cole and eartha kitt in the    careless love  video
is really one of the best things ever done


keep up the good work!



_______________________




why bother with apologetics when the beginning middle and end of time are spread out before one in an endless vista


why do so few see and so many not ?


and the many would crush the see-ers and rejoice in the crushing


sucking the blood as it oozes from the press


note: apologetics is the defense of not really defendable criticisms of a religion



_______________________




to mindmeal


if there's one thing


i really


loathe


it's all these single people


who will never have any kids


and


get things so wrong


and will spend their lives


obstructing


those


with any understanding




your life is meaningless


in


terms


of conventional values


and all


you can


do is


spoil


things
















the


retreat


of


the


apologists




 defeated?




i


think


not




suckering


real


life


instead
















i wrote the poem below after a stoush with some schizophrenics

on the wikipedia entry  historicity of jesus   (april 2010)




apologists


controlling


some


of


the


religious


topics


is


like


a


major


issue


with


wikipedia









the old toni packer wikipedia entry is as  follows


mirrored  on several sites on the web unbeknownst to me which is a gratifying indication of the quality of the writing, and toni of course, as it is about her! )



toni packer is the pre-eminent exponent of a semi or nonreligious, semi-philosphical approach exemplified by jiddu krishnamurti and ug krishnamurti, and in some measure zen buddhism and advaita vendanta


she was born in 1927 in germany to a german father and jewish mother. her status as half jewish in germany during the war years had a profound impact on her outlook


what her eventual fate might have been is hard to say as she and other members of her family were on the death list


it was only through the intervention of a colleague of her father's with the gestapo that a respite was granted


the family moved to switzerland after the war where she met kyle packer, an american exchange student whom she later married and moved to america with. kyle passed away several years ago


they have an adopted son and several grandchildren


a story she tells of her father's love of scenery is a view when driving he would describe as   summum bonum 


she is a former zen teacher who helped found the springwater center for meditative inquiry and retreats in springwater, new york and occupied the senior administrative position there


prior to this endeavor, she studied and taught at rochester zen center and also was a student of philip kapleau for 13 years


toni had departed from rochester zen center amid disillusionment with the dogma, methodology and ritual


talk  by toni  on her zen experience


there has been an attempt on her life, which may have contributed to her avoidance of publicity


springwater center is not a buddhist meditation center, but calls itself non denominational, and eschews notions of practice


“ meditative inquiry ”  is a contextless inquiry into the nature of reality and unsettling to normative human intelligence and it's dependencies on social referencing


toni packer is constantly misunderstood or misrepresented by people in buddhism, she eschews any notion of technique and she is emphatically NOT a buddhist


her style springs from theosophy as well as zen and unfortunately soto zen has had a malign influence that is somewhat disguised in the soto/hakuin hybrid lineage that was taught at the rochester zen center, however exposure to the unadultered soto is disillusioning


theosophy was influential in pre-war germany and ironically, or not so ironically, some of the nazi doctrine was formulated from it


toni would be exposed to it in her formative years so jiddu and ug krishnamurti are more her native language


the zen style sitting meditation at the center is entirely voluntary, as is attendance at the talks during retreats


she does however appear to have a view of herself as having some fundamental shift of perspective into  ‘nonbeing’  through meditation, and may still have the conventional zen view of seated meditation for this purpose


another story she tells is of looking into the blue eyes of a baby in a pram as a child and wondering    what on earth that was


because springwater carried a lot of personnel from the rochester zen center, there is quite a bit of accommodation to people who really seem unable to break entirely with the zen way of thinking. Her own views are different and not so constrained.


the springwater center is vegetarian which is a carry over from the rochester zen center, though there do seem to have been some exceptions to that rule. She is not personally a vegetarian


her talks have an intensely visual lyric character with naturalistic imagery from the center and it's surrounds


they convey a sense of boundarylessness,


the springwater center is a place of great beauty with sparkling streams and green leafy trees that just blow through the soul...........



______________________________





my comments from the wikipedia discussion page:



in the end i figured toni packer like zen is  empty 


what is the point of building some-one else up as a surrogate for ones own experience?


let the likes of you (whoever u are) and mindmeal meander about this entry forever :o)


somewhile back it became quite obvious that this sort of entry is not something that wikipedia does well, theres always some new schizophrenic ready to pop out and defecate all over the entry


however i valued the entry which was mostly my contribution at that point and put it on my web page were it will last my lifetime at least


at some point mindmeal will understand the issues of terminal over-volunteerism, but another schizophrenic will step into the breach or maybe the memory of toni packer will just fall away with time


one of toni packers issues is that she is accommodating an awful lot of nonsense for what is essentially a volunteer activity which is a weakness that runs right through springwater that other centers with their need for income are more real on, in the sense that the nonsense is promoted with an end in mind and not entirely unreal in that respect


if you compromise there is some limitation on the development and perhaps that has happened to her, though there can be other reasons for a limitation on development



_____________________




given that zen is such a  spewing  pit of schizophrenia she has done quite well


in the end, being a volunteer activity one asks if it has been got right and she has it right



_____________________




i think the promotion of seated meditation as a vehicle for 'whatever' does place springwater and packer still in the zen orbit, so comparisons with zen are not unfair. one can see an ipso facto transmission given to her leading disciples which is another almost unique zen characteristic.


i have often wondered about the utility of seated mediation, but now think it's just part and parcel of the zen 'package' and it's not necessary to separate it or try and seek some resolution, whatever the utility of zen was, it passes with progress and so too with seated meditation.


if it's a technique, you have to ask for what and after years of observation i would have to say it's singularly unsuccessful



_____________________




her felt affinity with mother teresa was likely a recognition of a similarity of situational disjunction


mother teresa's letters indicate a surprising atheism


one can be caught in the confines of an institution and still be free


i think john of cross and teresa of αvila were free too


there you are toni


you are with quality



_____________________




wikipedia, messageboards and the compendium/BCD are volunteer activities, the problem always is not what you do, but what you are not doing that will reward your life better


i don't think you not volunteer, but you must be very targeted in what you do


basically i only do this stuff now to sort out my own thinking, no illusions of helping the usual human arseholes


high quality thinking is always rejected by the human mass and it's natural mediocracy



_______________________




good stuff, interesting to see that i'm not the only one noticing these things  tassano


todays world has become very russian with a diffuse non-conscious stalin





-------------------------------------------------------------------------





below is an composite and edited update from the wikipedia toni packer page and my posts on the hardcore zen blog (february 2009) that reflects my views on the problems with meditation generally


seated meditation, in addition to restricting lymph and blood circulation, has thrombotic potential, possibly in the watershed capillaries of the brain as per dr. andrew moulden


in fact i noticed that toni packer and zen teachers hardly ever sit which points to some cognizance of these issues within the institutions, especially in the aged


'kinhin' or the walking break between the intervals of sitting is to provide circulation, though how successful this is, is hard to say.


packer views seated meditation as a core activity, and the center hosts silent meditation retreats more or less on a monthly basis throughout the year.


this meditation cannot be unambiguously labeled zen, and is almost completely stripped of ceremonious ritual.


it does correspond to the japanese zen shikantaza (koanless) practice however, and this makes it hard to reconcile packers claim that her work is without any ties to japanese traditions. (imo packers approach is tied deeply to the zen soto tradition)


it is an open question as to wether meditation rewires the brain to amplify the connectivity and activity of the default circuitry of the brain inducing a schizophrenic like condition


well it's not an open question, i think meditation intensifies and creates schizophrenia


solitude doesn't, but it won't unwind a nut (as per the una bomber who didn't read widely enough or he would have realised the world was always a disaster)


with a few exceptions, all the zen teachers i have seen were/are just plain nuts, surprisingly the kwan um zen school seems to have a few sane teachers



______________________




Altered brain activity in schizophrenia may cause exaggerated focus on self


MIT study links schizophrenia to key 'default mode' brain system


CAMBRIDGE, Mass. (january 2009)


  Schizophrenia may blur the boundary between internal and external realities by overactivating a brain system that is involved in self-reflection, and thus causing an exaggerated focus on self, a new MIT and Harvard brain imaging study has found.


The traditional view of schizophrenia is that the disturbed thoughts, perceptions and emotions that characterize the disease are caused by disconnections among the brain regions that control these different functions.


But this study, appearing Jan. 19 in the advance online issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, found that schizophrenia also involves an excess of connectivity between the so-called default brain regions, which are involved in self-reflection and become active when we are thinking about nothing in particular, or thinking about ourselves.


" People normally suppress this default system when they perform challenging tasks, but we found that patients with schizophrenia don't do this "  said John D. Gabrieli

" We think this could help to explain the cognitive and psychological symptoms of schizophrenia. "


Gabrieli added that he hopes the research might lead to ways of predicting or monitoring individual patients' response to treatments for this mental illness, which occurs in about 1 percent of the population.


Schizophrenia has a strong genetic component, and first-degree relatives of patients  (who share half their genes)  are 10 times more likely to develop the disease than the general population. The identities of these genes and how they affect the brain are largely unknown.


The researchers thus studied three carefully matched groups of 13 subjects each: schizophrenia patients, nonpsychotic first-degree relatives of patients and healthy controls. They selected patients who were recently diagnosed, so that differences in prior treatment or psychotic episodes would not bias the results.


The subjects were scanned by functional magnetic resonance imaging  (fMRI)  while resting and while performing easy or hard memory tasks

The behavioral and clinical testing were performed by Larry J. Seidman and colleagues at Harvard Medical School, and the imaging data were analyzed by first author Susan Whitfield-Gabrieli, a research scientist at the MIT Martinos Imaging Center at the McGovern Institute.


The researchers were especially interested in the default system, a network of brain regions whose activity is suppressed when people perform demanding mental tasks. This network includes the medial prefrontal cortex and the posterior cingulate cortex, regions that are associated with self-reflection and autobiographical memories and which become connected into a synchronously active network when the mind is allowed to wander.


Whitfield-Gabrieli found that in the schizophrenia patients, the default system was both hyperactive and hyperconnected during rest, and it remained so as they performed the memory tasks. In other words, the patients were less able than healthy control subjects to suppress the activity of this network during the task. Interestingly, the less the suppression and the greater the connectivity, the worse they performed on the hard memory task, and the more severe their clinical symptoms.


"We think this may reflect an inability of people with schizophrenia to direct mental resources away from internal thoughts and feelings and toward the external world in order to perform difficult tasks," Whitfield-Gabrieli explained.


The hyperactive default system could also help to explain hallucinations and paranoia by making neutral external stimuli seem inappropriately self-relevant. For instance, if brain regions whose activity normally signifies self-focus are active while listening to a voice on television, the person may perceive that the voice is speaking directly to them.


The default system is also overactive, though to a lesser extent, in first-degree relatives of schizophrenia patients who did not themselves have the disease

This suggests that overactivation of the default system may be linked to the genetic cause of the disease rather than it's consequences


The default system is a hot topic in brain imaging, according to John Gabrieli, partly because it is easy to measure and because it is affected in different ways by different disorders.



_______________________________________




diabetes  affects vascularization of the brain adversely


Salk study links diabetes and Alzheimer's disease


LA JOLLA, CA – Diabetic individuals have a significantly higher risk of developing Alzheimer's disease but the molecular connection between the two remains unexplained. Now, researchers at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies identified the probable molecular basis for the diabetes – Alzheimer's interaction.


In a study published in the current online issue of Neurobiology of Aging, investigators led by David R. Schubert, Ph.D., professor in the Cellular Neurobiology Laboratory, report that the blood vessels in the brain of young diabetic mice are damaged by the interaction of elevated blood glucose levels characteristic of diabetes and low levels of beta amyloid, a peptide that clumps to form the senile plaques that riddle the brains of Alzheimer's patients. (low iodine! ed.)


Although the damage took place long before the first plaques appeared, the mice suffered from significant memory loss and an increase in inflammation in the brain. "Although the toxic beta amyloid peptide was first isolated from the brain blood vessels of Alzheimer's patients, the contribution of pathological changes in brain vascular tissue to the disease has not been well studied," says Dave R. Schubert, Ph.D., professor and head of the Cellular Neurobiology Laboratory. "Our data clearly describe a biochemical mechanism to explain the epidemiology, and identify targets for drug development."


Alzheimer's and diabetes are two diseases that are increasing at an alarming rate within the U.S. population. Alzheimer's affects one in 10 Americans over 65 years of age and nearly 50 percent of those over 85 years old. Similarly, 7 percent or approximately 20 million Americans have diabetes, with the vast majority of these individuals being over 60.


Recent epidemiological studies have shown that diabetic patients have a 30 to 65 percent higher risk of developing Alzheimer's disease compared to non-diabetic individuals. The increased risk applies to both type 1 and type 2 diabetes, which share hyperglycemia as a common pathogenic factor.


"Many studies have focused on altered insulin signaling in the brain as a possible mechanism for the association between Alzheimer's disease and diabetes but researchers paid much less attention to the direct affects of increased blood glucose levels on brain function and the pathogenesis of Alzheimer's," explains lead author Joseph R. Burdo, Ph.D., a former postdoctoral researchers in Schubert's lab and now an assistant professor at Bridgewater State College in Bridgewater, Massachusetts.


To get at the bottom of the question why diabetes predisposes people to Alzheimer's disease as they age, the Salk researchers Schubert, Burdo and Qi Chen, in collaboration with diabetes expert Nigel Calcutt, a professor in UCSD's Department of Pathology, induced diabetes in young mice, whose genetic background predisposes them to acquire the symptoms of Alzheimer's with old age.


These mice suffered damage to blood vessels well before any overt signs of Alzheimer's disease such as nerve cell death or the acquisition of amyloid deposits, the hallmark of the disease, could be detected in their brains. Further experiments revealed that the vascular damage was due to the overproduction of free radicals, resulting in oxidative damage to the cells lining the brain's blood vessels.


"While all people have a low level of amyloid circulating in their blood, in diabetics there may be a synergistic toxicity between the amyloid and high level of blood glucose that is leading to the problems with proper blood vessel formation," says Burdo.


An earlier study by Schubert and his team has revealed that the exposure of cells to amyloid causes free radical production prompting a clinical trial investigating whether the antioxidant and free radical scavenger vitamin E would be beneficial for the treatment of Alzheimer's disease.


While this initial trial was only marginally successful, ongoing work in Schubert's lab centers on a new family of drugs that has shown promise for preventing Alzheimer's disease and perhaps the vascular damage associated with diabetes.



_______________________________________




Hanif Kureishi talks to the  BBC




 Would you describe yourself as religious?  



I've always been fascinated by religion. For me it's the deepest form of human expression, along with culture.


God is mankind's finest creation. Has there been a better idea than that of God?




 Do you believe in God, and if so, what sort of god? 



I believe in the need to understand what the idea of God, or gods, do for us.




 What do you think happens after you die?  



You dissolve into the minds of others, and you haunt them until they are tired of you, and even after.




 Does it change your view of someone when you find out that they are religious and how?  



You have to think about whether they are merely following the values of those around them, or whether they are delusional psychotics!




 Is religion a good thing? 



That's an impossible question.


Most people in most societies during human history have lived in what could be described as 'religious' communities.


Religions, like novels and myths, describe the world and help make it safer.




 What impact has religion had on your life?  



It's made me think about the important questions: sexuality, childhood, authority, death, power.




 Have you ever had a religious experience and can you describe it?  



I was thrown out of the East London mosque for being a dissident writer and critic of radical Islam.




 What is your favourite religious song?  



Sympathy for the Devil, by the Rolling Stones.




 What religious leader, if any, most inspires you? 



Most religious leaders are ignorant fools.


It's a shame so few of them are intelligent or even interesting.


It makes you wonder why the dullest people hang around religions. Gives the whole thing a bad name.




 What is your favourite religious book?  



The most interesting work about the use of religion as a form of organisation of the resentful and envious is Nietzsche's  “ On The Genealogy of Morals ”




_______________________________________





interesting february 2004 day 6 retreat  talk  by toni



i wrote the following after listening to it :




i actually


think


the


process


of


age


is


very


disillusioning


about


life




the


way


one


collapses


into


incapacity





 more poems themed on toni packer and springwater 





 springwater 


toni


packer


was


 herself 


or


was


 she  ?


no


point


in


being

a


clone


of

a


 clone 
















springwater


somewhat

a


 clone 


of


zen


buddhist culture

and


krishnamurti
















it


was


really


 weird 


to


travel


10,000


 miles 


from


auckland


to


springwater


and


pull


back


a

red


curtain


to


see


the


meditation


sitting


bell (inkin)


on


a


cushion


the


same


as


with


the


auckland


zen


society


sits


in


the


leys


institute
















what


i


find


a


bit


peculiar



the


way


interest


in


toni


packer



has


dropped


off



because


she


is


now


bed - ridden



is


that


the


interest


must


have


always


been


in


her


and


not


“ inquiry ”


 per


se 

















imo


toni


packer


is

a


bit


of


an


illusion




she's


the

real


thing




the


illusion


is


that


she


is


part


of


the


spiritual


 circuit !




she


may


have


fallen


victim


to


partly


believing


this


illusion


herself




perhaps


not



but


those


around


her




yes


and


no




i


think


you


need


to


be


entirely


clear


of


any


such


illusion
















i'm


bending


over backwards


do


others


bend


so ?




 no 


they



go


forwards


to


kill

though




when


they


 can 





i


suppose


life


bends


us


over


backwards


anyway


to


survive



maybe



 not 
















two teachers strongly influenced by toni packer are joko beck and the similarly named toni varner aka gangaji


the almost imitative style of gangaji can be seen in her videos


perhaps gangaji can be regarded as toni packer's true dharma heir ?


byron katie and eckhart tolle also seem influenced by her though i am understanding that krishnamutri and advaita also helped determine toni packer's approach


however toni packer still stands alone as the only one who truely sees imo


however i am appreciating toni varner and byron  katie  as having a few clues



however


as


heraclitis


puts


it




 If there were no sun, as far as depended on the other stars it would be night
















my last edit of the toni packer wikipedia entry was on july 27th 2010,
i have switched entirely across to only maintaining this page, wikipedia and it's trolls/moderators are too much grief!


my   comment    after removing the talk   link 


“  quality content  is  targeted  by  trolls  so better to  remove
than be  involved  in a  edit war  ”














below is my reply to a  complaint  of a personal attack in the  discussion  section of the wikipedia “ chelation therapy ” article


i really get annoyed when people like you jump in without doing any in depth reading on what you commenting on and your supreme self-confidence about being right when you are not. for instance the quackwatch page is also self published and really quite quirky when you have some familarity with it.


the bottom line is that wikipedia enforces an attitudinal bias called   medical political correctness    which is why    quackwatch    is acceptable to most wikipedia editors.


also this bias does not permit the article to cover the actual real practice of chelation therapy which a true encyclopedic article on the subject would do




do


a


wikipedia


search


on


“ pornography 


 actresses ”


then look at the way the chelation therapy


article


is


curtailed


i


suppose


you


still


can't


see


what


i


am


saying


any


wonder


i


use


the


term


 intellectual


 limitation ?














no


reply


just


run


away


you


see


what


they


are


made


of


don't


 you ?














wikipedia


is


the


enshrinement


of


mediocracy ! 














i


think


to


start


with


  wikipedia


was


more


successful


than


it


might


be














i


think


the


thing


about


wikipedia


is


it


is


volunteer


and


if


you


go


too


far


into


volunteer


you


end


up


in


trouble


and


if


you


don't


go


deeply


enough


you


end


up


with


some


illusions
















an


encyclopedia


article


is


supposed


to


be


readable


informative


and


true


and

where


what's


true


is


not


easy


to


see


it

should


have


a


discussion


of

the


 options 
















 wikipedia 


editors


are


 toads
















wikipedia


is


a


kafkaesque


bureaucracy !














well i am not interesting fighting attitudinal bias so if this  link  is going back it will have to be put up by someone else !  (reply to  beetstra  on my talk page - he threatened to block me AGAIN !)


however it does seem to fit WP/EL which states


“ Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that is   relevant to an encyclopedic understanding of the subject    and cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks), or other reasons. ”


i did give up on the toni packer entry a while back and made a mistake re-entering the   fray    so to speak because if it's not you and  WLU,  it's the buddhists who try to change the article so it looks good to them


toni packer left zen buddhism and there's quite a bit of friction there which is why that talk link was particularly relevant as she discusses her zen experience


i know toni packer personally and have years of experience in this area but obviously that counts for nothing to young men like yourself and wlu who inadvertently or otherwise excise of the best parts of an article


however i always thought that link would be removed , not by you and wlu but by the various buddhist apologists that descend on the page occasionally since it is a really good talk and they need to remove anything that makes toni packer look good !


do yourself a favour and listen to it for the entire length boring tho it may seem, the perspective is “ life enlarging ”




i


take


an

overall


look


and


pornographic actresses


are


acceptable


and


years

of


experience


in certain areas is not


so


i


take


my


leave from


editing



both you and WLU are strongly autistically traited as i am, life has some hard lessons and one is to be willing to be look at were we are wrong



i

am doing


that but i'm not wrong


and my experience is that consensus and group opinions are in the ultimate analysis


always


wrong



now there, i have taken quite a bit of time to tell you something useful, don't rubbish it, just sit back and think a bit and try to put the pieces in place which i am afraid is the work of a lifetime















i


always


imagine


people


are


halfway


reasonable


but


they


never


are














there


is


more


to


life


than


your


rigid


atheist


“ medical 


political


correctness

outlook ”



yes !














when


people


have


control


over


you



they


behave


like



crucifying


little


shits




which


when


you


think


about


it




is


logical




they


always

put


their


needs


first














they


are


just


little

demons


little


bastards


these


young


wikipedia


editors !














wikipedia


is


over


prim


and


like


the


over -


prim



has


a

pornographic


hole














wikipedia


is


a

nightmare


it


really


helps


to

have


been


in



a


few


editing


fights


to


see


that


and


to


have


been


very


unfairly


squelched


by some


idiot


admin


and


then


you


will


understand

the


limitations


of


it !
















with


irc


chat,

message


boards


and


wikipedia



it's


always


the


same


problem




those


who


who


seek


to


be

admins'


moderators


or


owners


are


least


able


to


act


judiciously


they


control

to


keep


their


own


piece


of


mind
















it's


just

as


well


these


idiots


are


trashing


wikipedia




people


are


mentally


lazy


they


would


take


wikipedia


as


gospel
















if


you


think


some-ones


working


against


you


it


often


turns


out


subtlely


they


are


working


for


you
















if


you


look


closely


a


lot


of


wikipedia


entries


are


empty



that


is



devoid


of


meaningful


content



because


they


are


effectively


censored
















meditation


just


makes


you


schizophrenic
















in


terms


of


what


zen


calls


kensho


it's


just


a little


sparkle


whereas


what


you


want


is

a

deep


falling


into


the


well


you


don't


get


that


deep


falling


unless


you


integrate


your


life


and


most


people


don't


can't


and


won't




and


live


like


dried


apples




i


am


only


writing


this


because


the


old


zen


law


seems


to


have


been


lost


and


replaced


by


something


called


meditation




where


is


the


spirit ?


vapourized


into


todays


airhead


generation


i


am


afraid




no


it's


not


just


nostalgia


it's


vaccines


goitrogens


marginal


nutrition


and


brain

death


in


the


wrong


way !
















wikipedia


legalism


has


overtaken


what


it


is


about !
















wikipedia


has


been


taken


over


by


a


group


of


attitudinally


biased


OCD


youngsters


and


young


men


with


zero


knowledge


and


100%


interference


and


the


result


is


to


wreck


it



misunderstood


and


misapplied


policy


documents


cannot


cover


10 year


shortfalls


of


specific


experience


in


a


subject !




overconfidence


and


no


self -


modesty




the


modern


disease














on august the 21st 2010 the user sandstein deleted the vast bulk of the comments and discussion on the toni packer entry in violation of a convention on wikipedia to leave the discussion alone, however this is just part of the trend to   hyper-editing   admins that lack subject expertise who are just killing wikipedia


my suggestion for wikipedia is to restrict admins privileges to those subjects in which they have experience and true interest and are able to act in an impartial manner and not impose the various attitudinal biases they suffer from, that is, after replacing jimmy wales who has to go !














wikipedia


editors


are


unpaid


employees 


of


google


and


bing !














  does sitting do anything useful or does it entrain or even create schizophrenia ?



if


it's


useful


what


is


the


context


if


it


entrains


schizophrenia


that's


pretty


much


evidenced


by

the


nuttiness


of


zen















what are the mechanisms of damage ?


and


they


are


pretty


much

the


same


for


spring


water


as


zen


no. 1 is probably the talks !


that's


because


it's


one


way


with


no

reply


they


never


did


toni


any


good


either !


2ndly


the


culture


of


self


kneecapping


which


is


a


religious


essential


actually


i


don't


think


the


diet


helps


especially


the

soyabean


lastly


not


enough


writing !


without


writing


you


don't


have


enough


memory !


also


not


reading


broad


enough


especially


poetry and


some


philosophy


and

interesting


historical


items


and


accounts


it's


all


there


on


the


web !

sitting


and


meditation


inducting


or


amplifying


schizophrenia


has


already


been


covered














what's


the


problem


with


talks


basically


you


have


to


listen


to


something


you


can't


  dispute !


that


is


you


take


it


in


in


a

child


like


way


without


being


able


to


tease


out


the


flaws


which


in


the


context


of


religion

or


religious


like


including


springwater


are


over


whelming


i


don't


say


it's


black


and


white


i


found


toni's


book


the


work


of


this


moment



which


is


a

collection


of


talks


very


  useful !


a


widening


perspective


is


   neverending !


or


infinite


if


you


will


:

o

)


if


only


people


were


keyed


for


process


and


not


  arrival !














the


only


way


to


keep


your


sanity


on


wikipedia


is

to



mirror


what


you

write


so


it's


not


 lost !














wikipedia


and


message


boards


are


counter-


intuitive


you end


up


hurt


wether


you


are


reader


or


writer


i


hope


these


homilies


have


provided


some

theories


of


mind


to


navigate


these


treacherous


rapids !














most


of


what

i


write on wikipedia


is


against


the


grain


counter-intuitive


saying


something


unpalatable


you


have


to


be


very


careful


how


you


do

it


disguise


it


in


politically


correct


stuff


a


wolf


in


sheep's


clothing


so


to


speak !














toni


packer's


problem


of


decompression !


the


talks


and


the


retreats


and


the


interviews


then


the


talks


are

a


decompression


of


that


i


am


similar


on


the


net


the


question


is


being stuck


in


this


of


any


benefit ?














in


my


opinion


sitting


is


a


crowd


control


passivation


technique


and


you


got


 sucked   suckered


in


by


it


 toni !


it's


secondary


to


various


intellectual


processes


zen


is


fucked


in


the


head !














did joan tollifson facilitate the transfer of  “toni-ese”  into neo advaita with her writing?


neo advaita especially eckhart tolle has gutted zen and has implications for springwater since it is such a good good facsimile but NOT identity ?


it takes a first class traitor to do this and that imo is joan who has some undesirable character traits, perhaps typical of people with an obvious disability, maybe they get pissed with life and people, i don't blame them and what i say must not be construed as a criticism, what occurs is life and is always teaching us something and we all have severe flaws !


neo advaita are not particularly smart except for for tolle, they could not have affected such a transfer of vocabulary and style from springwater themselves, especially those who teach in neo advaita, like religious teachers everywhere they are extraodinarily dense and rigid and beside the point !


so


how did


it


happen


well


it's


not


black


and


white


but


i


think


joan's


books


delivered the springwater style and vocabulary


in


a


palatable


way


minus


the


real


questioning


which


joan

also


strenuously


avoided


so


there


it


was, a four course meal delivered gratis !


springwater has been hurt by this and they obviously don't understand the net at all and i have to question their refusal to run any sort of public interactivity like a message baord, in short , it's the typical head in the sand atittude typical of zen !


i actually think the retreat paradigm is doomed too !


too


viral


a


world!


i


actually


think


toni's


health


was


damaged


by


the


constant

flux


of


less


than


healthy


people


she


dealt


with


too


much


constant


immune


stimulation


annihilating


the


pancreatic


beta


cells !


that's


what


i


mean


about


life


it's


really


weird


what


we


build


so


carefully


rears


round

like


an


angry


bear


and


kills


us !



eckhart tolle is the enemy



life's

a


lot


simpler


if


you


understand


that !


why?


because


he's


half


baked


but


like


the


getty  korous


a


fake

so


good


it's


hard


to


tell !


now


the


madonna


and


child


by


duccio


di


buoninsegna


is


real !














the


basic


problem


is


involvement


and


then


you


have


to


unwind


the


involvement


so


it's


better


not


to


get


involved


most


people


intuitively


understand


this


i


don't


and


have


to


learn


the


hard


 way !














i


don't


have


to


go


anywhere


where


i


am


christianity


is














i


don't


have


to


go


anywhere


where


i


am


zen


is














i


don't


have


to


go


anywhere


where


i


am


springwater


is














i


think


toni


packer


has


effectively


destroyed


zen


because


she


opened


up


the


gates


to


neo-


advaita !


not


that


zen


wasn't


doomed


anyway


with


it's


crazy


system


of


teacher


student


transmission


and


absurd


training


system


but


it


would


have


been

a


lot


slower !














why


do


i


have


to


be


so


mad


does


any


contact


with


zen


or


similar


contaminate ?














why


do


i


have


to


be


so


mad


does


any


contact


with


zen


and


similar


contaminate ?
















eckhart


tolle


is


a

chronic


plagiarist


you


can


see


it


in


the


name !


meister


eckhart


indeed !


he


is


not


of


“ the 


eye


that


sees


god


is


the


same


eye


that


sees


 me ”


stamp !


he


never


appears


on


truely


open


forums


where


criticism


is


possible


you


notice !


quite


hypnotic


tho !


but


a


neo-


adviata


upstart


on


the


make


like


them


 all !
















what's


the


lesson


from


toni


packer


you


just


compress


and


decompress


and


bust

a


gut


and


your


health


suffers

. .


o


)


(
















go back and live at  springwater 
















  letter  attached to a card sent late jan 2012 to toni packer
















i am sending toni a sony px312 voice recorder and  this  is the message i am sending in it !


ed.  it was no use to toni so i am sure wayne and susan codger can make good use of it !


i guess the reality is i will be the only one using it/them  : o )
















transcript  from a talk given during the November 1998 retreat

at the Springwater  Center  by Toni Packer




Let's talk about anger.  Everyone experiences it at one time or another.


Can something be done about anger?


A retreatant reported experiencing lots of energy during sittings, mostly generated by feeling angry about the sitting itself. Thoughts were running about wasting her time here while there was so much work to do at home. "What should I do with all this energy? At times I feel like screaming! Is it all right to scream?"


We have all agreed to maintain outward silence during retreats. Screams are disturbing. If one really feels like screaming that's OK, but maybe one can find a ravine in the woods where it would not impact others. But it's a good question, what to do with powerful energy like anger. My immediate response to the questioner was, " Let it be awareness! Awareness is energy! "


Years ago a man came to see me before applying for retreat, asking if it would be all right to express anger during a meeting. I said it was all right. So one day he entered the meeting room with a tense, flushed face, asking if he could vent his anger at me right then and there. I nodded, and quietly asked: " Have you ever looked at it directly? " No answer came just a charged silence. We sat wordlessly for what seemed to be an eternity, and then he burst out laughing: " It doesn't have to be expressed! " When a powerfully driving emotion gives way to simple awareness, it is like a miracle. What emerged from awareness wasn't screams, but laughter and insight.


Psychological theories about what to do with anger abound and change with time. I do not know if anger should be expressed or shouldn't be. The fact is that we do get angry, and it expresses itself instantly, verbally as well as non-verbally, throughout the body. So what is this anger? Can we go beyond the question, " What should I do with it? " and beyond answers like, " I should feel it in my body, or I should express it verbally, physically, or I ought to control it "


There is plenty to feel when we're angry. It mobilizes the entire organism, mentally and physically no single cell remains unaffected. Storylines run wildly, keeping the agitation going. Can we feel all these amazing physical and mental manifestations without resistance? If resistance is there, then feel it, look at it. Don't try to shut it down by telling yourself that it is dangerous to experience anger, or try to convince yourself that we are wholly justified in what we are feeling. We really don't know. Every thought, every judgment about it intensifies confusion and agitation! Can simple awareness shed light, create space?


Trace anger as it is happening! Why am I getting angry? What is at the base of it? Can it be irradiated with attention? By looking at it, questioning it, observing it in the light of the question, what reveals itself is that we function in rigid patterns that do not want to be interrupted. Memory structures in the brain and throughout the body about how we are, how things ought to be, what is right and what is wrong keep us functioning fairly smoothly, but when they are interfered with, anger results.


These memory structures are wired into us from day one. Even an infant, who does not yet understand the spoken word, understands judgments conveyed by mother's and father's voice, eyes, and touch. What brings smiles, warmth, and protection is good, is right, is worth repeating over and over again. What brings rejection, hardness, sadness, or pain is bad, wrong, must be avoided. So, from early on, memory structures solidify organismically about what is right and what is wrong to do, to be, to feel, to think, to say. Schools, churches, and daily living together reinforce these structures. What we want and what has given us pleasure becomes the dominating pattern that needs to be maintained, incessantly fulfilled, and defended against disturbance.


When what we want is interfered with or thwarted, or when somebody transgresses what is deeply felt to be right, the energy that keeps the system intact explodes.  “ What they did was Wrong!!!!  How dare they! ”  I could see something like this happening in our grandchildren. Our little grandson was quite obedient, having learned through punishment and reward what his parents felt to be right and wrong, what to do and what not to do, and, above all, what not to touch. Several years later when his little sister came toddling along, playing with the buttons on the stereo that he had painfully learned to leave alone, he would get furious with her, slapping her little hands. He could not tolerate seeing her do what for him had become a rigid pattern of    no !    Anger was the result of the disturbance. And so it is with all of us. Observing someone do what the brain has encoded as wrong triggers an eruption of energy that wants to keep the pattern intact. It feels as though we had been personally injured.


I have been wondering about this for a long time: why do we get angry when someone else acts in a " stupid " way? What reveals itself upon examination is that we easily feel irritated toward somebody who " doesn't get it " like a parent or schoolteacher getting exasperated at a child. This sort of anger isn't questioned very much it seems justifiable. We feel righteous anger toward those whose ways are in collision with our own. Can we question this deeply?


I remember feeling uncomfortable at the Zen Center when we recited the precept not to become angry. How could we make this vow, knowing full well that we would become angry again? And then get angry about having transgressed a vow! I also wondered about the teacher's saying that there were appropriate, righteous angers not included in the vow. What is anger? This was my query, tracing it to its very foundation. Why do we get angry? Not making explanations or excuses or accusations, but watching directly what is actually taking place. Why do we keep on being angry, what maintains the agitated mood after the explosion has happened?

Does it necessarily have to continue for any length of time?


We may assume that we continue being angry because of a deep reservoir of rage established within us over time that can only be depleted over time. But I have actually observed that physical agitation dissipates amazingly fast if the personalized picture story about what has happened to us is clearly seen as story, and is understood as the culprit that keeps the anger burning. With ever-fresh insight the brain can actually cease composing agitating scenarios, abstaining wisely from picturing ourselves as sacrificial victims of other peoples' stupidity or meanness. Without clear insight, incendiary storylines keep running, fueling the anger time and time again.


With insight we may realize that there exists a tenacious attachment to our stories and to the resulting anger. We actually feel good in this powerful release, even though remorse may set in when the storyline changes: " After this they won't like me anymore! " But, it is an ever-amazing discovery that emotions can dissipate when the story is seen and ends in the seeing. Some physical sensations may linger for a while, but need not become a problem. Watch the stories and let them go !  The body has an amazing ability to establish harmony when left alone.


You may be thinking right now ,  “ Aren't there situations in which we ought to stand up for what is right, feel outrage against exploitation or abuse? ”  I do not know what we ought to feel, ought to do. Establishing  oughts  and trying to live by them doesn't lead to insight into what is. What does happen when we are exploited, abused, humiliated, made fun of, or when we see it happening to others ?


We have never learned a wise way to deal deeply with this stuff because we are so used to either putting up with it, suffering from it, fighting it, or exploding over it. Either we continue darkly in our conditioned patterns, or there is an awakening of interest in what is going on for all of us, the abuser as well as the abused. This has nothing to do with sanctioning hurtful behavior, excusing it, or allowing it to continue.


Can we simply behold each other as we are from moment to moment? See ourselves, see everyone, as results of millennia old conditioned patterns which have rigidly governed our behavior even though we do not consciously want it to be so? Not just an intellectual understanding of this, but direct insight into the power of our overwhelmingly strong conditioning. Then, maybe, we can begin to question things together and communicate with each other in a new, intelligent, and compassionate way. Anger, with its chemical toxins, is not conducive to clearly examining and investigating. On the contrary, it spells confusion in the mind.


What is needed is unpolluted looking into what is happening for all of us. Out of clear insight comes the energy to act in a clear way. Such action is difficult for us because we are so heavily conditioned in our patterns of reacting that we are not even cognizant of them most of the time. But that is not an immutable state of affairs. There can be ever-increasing awareness of how we react and how others react to us because of our reactions to them. We are all entangled together in chain reactions! Bring them to light! Realize that when you talk to someone with an angry demeanor they are likely to respond in kind, triggering further irritation in you and, then again, you in them, and on and on.


Most of us are scared of people who are angry, shouting, attacking, blaming. Out of fear, we respond angrily ourselves. This immediately touches memories of our childhood, years of helplessness and utter dependence on adults who often exploded in incomprehensible ways. Fear of angry people makes us not want to be near them it is too upsetting, too intimidating. So, turning it around again, can we question, while we are angry, whether we are actually upsetting and intimidating other people ?  Maybe we don't really want to upset other people.  A moment of clarity and insight brings astonishing sensitivity and care.


As a child I was very scared of my mother's anger, particularly when it was vented against my brother or the cook or nanny. I was deeply attached to all of them. My brother was often sullen, moody, obstinate, and did poorly in his schoolwork. I felt excruciating pain every time he was scolded, punished, or humiliated. Later, in my teens, I told my mother that I had been afraid of her anger all my life. She was visibly shocked. She didn't realize at all that I could have felt that way. It obviously did not fit the image she had of herself.


Memories now arise of times when I was not afraid of mother. We would sometimes go together into town to do shopping. We often walked quite a distance, and she would hold my hand, and it was such a wonderfully happy feeling. Sometimes I would arrange my small hand in hers in a special way, and she would go along with it. One time we were walking through a department store, passing through many narrow isles with merchandise tables left and right, and I felt my mother's deep sadness, looking for something she couldn't find.


Just to complete that story, we visited my parents in Switzerland after I was married. One day I saw my mother in the dining room alone, looking toward me, and suddenly there was just this beautiful woman standing there without any images. So much love in this moment without images. No feeling that I had to be anything she may have thought of me. It was completely natural. From that moment on, our relationship changed.


So, can we have infinite patience with our own anger and the anger of others? Can our habitual reactions for or against someone be replaced with a wondering awareness that does not know? Can we try to understand each other on the deepest level, without images? We are the only laboratories for unfolding this understanding anger wells up in all of us. Why? Not that it shouldn't, but just WHY ?

Let it reveal itself fully in awareness beyond limitation.
















I guess now toni packer has died I can say it, but she said the enlightenment stories in  the three pillars of zen  were made up by philip kapleau !

an incident i   remembered   today that finally made sense  !

tapes

toni   burnt  out  ?

useful  conversations  with toni never happened

you get this in real life too,  aporiaic  zen versus logocentrism, an example is toni packer’s split from the rochester center  .  .

i think the necessity of frankness is one thing i learnt from toni, perhaps by its absence, i wish i had been more up to conversing with her instead of just keeping my frightened mouth shut, would have been better for both of us i think !

its a pity she is no longer around to meet, she was a real education in dealing with people, perhaps too skilled for her own good, she kept things more stable than was for her own benefit !

toni was relatively untouched by the holocaust but sort of in the manner of a small boat on a raging river, precarious to say the least !

i really didn’t understand until watching survivor videos on the net and this  film

quantum   entanglement

i am not certain, but i seem to remember that toni packer’s father worked for ig farben which used jewish slave labour during world war two

i would assume that the company had close links to the gestapo and s.s. and interestingly her father’s boss was able to go to the gestapo and get some sort of exception made for her jewish mother and of course the children, i don’t even think her mother had to wear the star of david and the children weren’t excluded from school

toni didn’t look jewish at all, rather classically aryan or nordic with her blond colouring and blue or green? eyes !

springwater  sane  versus mt. tremper insane

i was always lucky to come across toni packer in person, she’s gone now, but the opportunity was so rare its hard to think about !

i was always lucky to come across toni packer in person, she’s gone now, but the opportunity is so rare its hard to think about !

how i  found  toni packer